In this episode, Douglas Yones, Head of Exchange Traded Products at the New York Stock Exchange, is joined by Maital Legum, Head of ETF Operations at the New York Stock Exchange on ETF Central’s The Podcast to discuss how she got her start in the ETF industry, her role as Head of ETF Operations, and innovation in ETFs over the past decade.

Douglas and Maital discuss:

• How Maital got her start in the ETF industry 
• An inside look into the day-to-day NYSE ETF operations 
• Innovation in ETFs 
• Advice on building a successful career

Transcript

Douglas Yones:

Hello and welcome to ETF Central, the podcast where we bring the latest and greatest ETF industry perspectives directly to you, through in-depth conversations with key thought leaders from across the ETF ecosystem. I'm your host, Douglas Yones, the Head of Exchange Traded Products at the New York Stock Exchange, the Home of ETFs. Oh my gosh, today I couldn't be more excited. I am joined by the one and only, Maital Legum. Maital has spent over a decade as part of the ETF listings business here at the New York Stock Exchange. While I'm going to say her team is responsible for supporting ETF issuers through their entire listings lifecycle, it goes way beyond that. She and her team have a complete focus on building a robust issuer relations and services support team. They work with issuers through every stage of their journey, answering questions, concierge service. We'll get into that as we talk through the podcast.

But previously to the New York Stock Exchange, some people may remember Maital, she worked at FTSE Russell. She supported ETF issuers there as well, in their product development lifecycle, with an eye for new and innovative products that were not yet available in the markets. Of course, that work continues here because she spends a lot of her time working with ETF issuers around product development, product insights, a view of a lens of everything happening in the ETF market, and then of course, helping them with flawless execution. I believe I hear those words come from your mouth. Maital, thank you so much for being here.

Maital Legum:

I'm so excited to be here since I don't spend enough time with Doug on a day-to-day basis, and the ETF team here at the NYSE. I decided it's time to get on a podcast and publicly have our conversations so everyone can listen in to what happens every day.

Douglas Yones:

Yeah. This will be like a day in the life on the ETF team desk, here at the New York Stock Exchange. We're going to get into it, you're going to make fun of me. I'm going to smile and laugh the whole time, just like a regular day.

Maital Legum:

All right, yeah, pretty much. I'll do my best.

Douglas Yones:

Okay. A lot of people in the industry know you, a lot of people in the industry love you, but for that rare person that's listening in, they don't know what it is you do at work, each and every day at the New York Stock Exchange, your title here is Head of Operations, but the work you do for exchange traded products goes beyond that. Could you explain a bit about what you and your team work on and are facilitating on a day-to-day basis?

Maital Legum:

Sure. I often ask myself the same question, what do I do every day? And it really changes, but really, what we really think about and what I wake up every day is managing the day-to-day experience of NYC listed issuers and almost NYC listed issuers and prospects and people who are thinking about getting into the ETF space. And really, that's all-encompassing. So we have so many people at the Exchange who support the ETF business, and it's my job and my team's job to work with everyone in the industry outside this building, to work through the process and work through the trade desk and work through the legal and compliance and kind of everything behind the scenes that happens on a day-to-day basis, that we may or may not even think about, is what we're here for. So we're kind of going to be there every day, all day, on our phones, on our emails, on our texts, whatever you might think of, to make sure that we can support you with whatever you might think, hopefully with some limits, let's just be real, maybe some people take that to the next level, but we try and be there almost 24 hours a day. I don't like to sleep, so that usually works pretty well.

But really it's just, what I think about every day is waking up and providing, you talked about this best-in-class experience for NYC issuers, and that could mean an array of things. Our issuers are so different and their experiences and their needs are so different, and we're here to customize that experience to that particular issuer, to that particular manager, or whatever it might be. And we want to make sure that it's flawless and that it's best-in-class, and everything that you may or may not think of, as an ETF issuer and becoming an ETF issuer.

So, really just thinking about that all day, every day, how can we make that process better? How can we think about all the questions for you before you even can think of the questions? And learning from our experiences, of, you been doing this for a really long time, and I've definitely, when I think I've seen it all, something comes up and I'm like, "Oh, wait, I haven't seen it all." So you really never know. So when I think day one looks like... I'm coming in that morning and I'm like, "Oh, I have a list of things to do," and then an email comes in and I'm like, "Forget that list. We got a whole new project or a new issue to work on." So we keep it exciting, and there's always product development, there's always new ideas, there's always new issues that I can't think of, and that makes it exciting.

Douglas Yones:

Yeah. I think what's really impressive that people don't realize, because they're not behind the scenes, they sort of think, okay, an issuer comes up with a product plan or a product idea, and then they file with the SEC, and then they come to market, and they have their listing day, and they're not realizing that you and your team have a project plan for every single ETF launch, every single ETF issuer, so you're carrying a lot of water, you're running your own work streams, you're making sure no one misses a timeline, no one misses a filing, no one misses all the little nuances and pieces, because those inputs equal outputs. When we go to our phones and we look up a quote, that's all coming from your team. When dividends are issued, that's all coming through your team. When launches come through, that's all coming through your team. When the first day trading event, that's all coming from your team.

Oh, and by the way, and you touched on this, along the way, people will email us, call us and say, "I have this sort of crazy idea," and your team is diagnosing, does that idea fit into current regulations? And if it doesn't, you kick off the project plan to change regulations. And we see that day in and day out, and we're always running projects. Right now we're running projects around trying to get options listed on commodity ETFs such as Bitcoin ETFs. So we started that project over a year ago when Bitcoin ETFs didn't even exist. The job that you have is not for everyone. It's not for the faint of heart, but also, like you said, you're coming in every single day, not knowing what to expect that day. Is that a fair statement?

Maital Legum:

A day that what happens, I guess, is expected is, I don't say it's a good day, but that's an uneventful day. So I've been here for over 12 years and I've done a lot of different parts of the process, and I've grown up in the industry with a lot of different issuers, and a lot of people say to me, "I never talk to you anymore," and I'm like, "No, no, no, that's good. That means everything is working. Our process is working. We have a great team. We're going through the checklist. Everything is kind of going according to plan. And when you talk to me, it probably means something got derailed. And that's fine, and that's fun for me, I won't tell you that, but at the end of the day, if I don't talk to you, that's good news."

I do miss some of that day-to-day interaction that I have with people that I've worked with for 12-plus years. But I think it's a good thing when you're not talking to me. When you're talking to me, that means, "Oh, something new happened, something unexpected happened. How do we fix this? How do we get through it?" Listen, we always get through it. As long as we have the control and then... We figure out how to get that listing out the door on that timeline, how to fix a naming issue, a data issue, a trading issue. But at the end of the day, I'd like to not hear from certain issuers, because that means everything is going well, which is what we really want to focus on, is making sure that our infrastructure and our structure and our processes are working as they should, to support everyone, and we shouldn't have to meddle within that.

Douglas Yones:

And a skillset that you definitely bring to the desk each day, and bring to your team, is thinking ahead, but not thinking ahead one or two steps. Oftentimes you'll come in and say, "Hey, you know three months from now when this is going to happen, we need to check on these six other things that could happen. We'll close those loops long before anyone else thinks about it. And so then by the time we're one month out and people are going through their pre-go checks, we've already solved for those things." And that's something that not everybody has, but you're bringing to this business every day. But let's back up a little bit, Maital. Let's talk about the career. Where did this all start, and did you think you always wanted to work with ETFs?

Maital Legum:

Like most people my age in the industry, I didn't even know what an ETF was. So, growing up, in college, I just loved to learn the new and exciting things, and I just couldn't get enough of learning new things, and we could get into that, but with all, I had a gazillion majors and a million different things, and I just wanted to learn and challenge, but I didn't know what an ETF was. Did anybody? You did at that time when I was in college, you're a little bit older than me, a little bit-

Douglas Yones:

Again, we're already poking fun at my age.

Maital Legum:

... a little bit older than me. And so you were earlier to the game. I was, even in whatever it was, 2008, that's still relatively early in the lifespan of the ETF space, and we still have a ways to go, and at the time, that was early, but I didn't even know what ETF was. I happened, I know you have more questions, but I happened to end up, through a lot of different bizarre reasons, getting a job at FTSE, and I never even like, "Oh, this sounds good. This sounds exciting. I can learn. I can figure something out. I'm sure... I'll figure out what my next step is, where I want to take this." So I ended up getting a job at FTSE, working on the sales team, supporting a lot of different sales. And a tiny little subset at that time was ETFs. And I was like, what is this ETF thing that we're licensing? What is this contract? To take you really far back, I think it was maybe Faith Shares, was randomly the first ETF that I really was like, oh, what is this? I see it on the license. So I started tracking it. I started looking into it. And then when the time came and I was like, okay, about two years in your first job, you're like, after two years, you got to take a level set.

Is this something I want to do? Do I want to pivot? Early on, you still got... You always have options, but you still have options. But you're really kind of starting to think about that, I think, probably two years into your career, or more or longer. And I was like, you know what? I don't think I want to stay in this market data world, specifically. I kind of want to look where there is. And I'm like, you know what? This ETF thing... And I still probably didn't know what an ETF really was. I didn't know the mechanics, I didn't really understand anything, but I was like, this is growing. This is what I should try and get into.

There's, at that time, I don't think a lot of jobs in ETFs like there are today. There were a lot fewer ETFs, a lot fewer asset management... I also didn't even know what to look for. I was like, this sounds good. This is growing. You want to get into an area of growth. So, somehow I saw the posting, New York Stock Exchange, ETF listings, I'm like, oh, New York Stock Exchange, that's the coolest place. Obvious, still is. So I was like, this sounds good. And I happened to, somebody that knew somebody that ended up living in my building that worked on our team, and I came in for an interview and I met with Tom Champion and the team, and I was like, this sounds exciting. There's a lot of things going on. There's a lot of opportunities. So I interviewed. Five months later, they finally gave me a job offer. I was on vacation. I wasn't even around. I kept pinging Tom every couple of weeks, "Hey, what's the status?" "Nothing," "Nothing," but now that I know Tom, I know it's genuine, and he wasn't brushing me off, but at the time, I'm like, this is never going to pan out.

Douglas Yones:

And it has. It has panned out.

Maital Legum:

It panned out. It worked out pretty well. And I was like, when I started, I was like, this will be a job. Three years, I'll move on. And 12 plus years later, here I am. And we could talk about many reasons why that still is. And when I started, even at the New York Stock Exchange, I don't even think I understood what an ETF was, except that it was growing and it was something I wanted to learn, and it was something super exciting and I saw a lot of potential, and that really was my focus and the areas I wanted to go into.

Douglas Yones:

Let's talk a little bit about that. So I want to talk about that sort of focus and that sort of urge for more information. Maybe share with us a little bit, you mentioned you had a lot of majors in college, about college, but also the fact that I think it is interesting that you stepped into a role, saying clearly the mindset, two to three years, and that's probably where you reassess, but the reality is, it's not two to three years. It is 12 plus years. Certainly you've had unbelievable growth. Here you now run an entire operations team. You cover ETFs, you cover ETPs, you cover structured products, you cover SPACs, you cover closed down funds. So your reach and your career level has certainly been commiserate with the unbelievable growth that you've had, personally. But what was that draw for more information way back when? And how is it that this role continues to breathe that fire, I guess, into you, that you're excited to be a part of it every day?

Maital Legum:

Sure. And I think as I mentioned, when you think you've seen it all, you realize you haven't seen it all. So we're always like, oh, well, what's next? There's 3000 ETFs out there, and here we are again, now listing Bitcoin ETFs, which I don't know, seven years ago we had that conversation first here in this building. But I really like challenges. I really like problem-solving, figuring out issues, which probably what drew me to take on this... I didn't think this was going to be this operational role and problem-solving on a day-to-day basis. So, yeah, and you mentioned it, in college, I had this thirst for knowledge, and I was like, oh, I'm going to do international political economy, I'll do something international. I thought, really nothing like this. But at the end of the day, it's exciting and you come in every day and...

I never imagined, and the industry just keeps reinventing itself and growing and coming up with new and interesting problems. The industry looks very different than it did when I started in 2008. And so I always feel like it's like I'm not even working in the same place. So it's not this boring, I won't say what jobs might feel this way, but some people are like, okay, this is what I do, checklists and every day is the same, and nothing's changed in 30 years, and that sounds so awful. But here, it's super dynamic, and forget about the New York Stock Exchange and how dynamic our day-to-day is, and things change beyond just even ETFs, ETPs, but just as a company, my first day, interestingly enough, the first day I started at the New York Stock Exchange was the announcement of the acquisition of the Deutsche [inaudible 00:16:38], which didn't go through, but that was my first day.

And where we've come through from even as an ETF team back then, and where, A, the NYSE has transformed itself and has changed and has evolved so much, I think with the acquisition of ICE, and then just how important the ETF business became, made it so much more exciting. We really were able to build. Especially the, I don't know, you've been here, I can't even remember, eight years or so, and it's changed so much, and we've been able to build and come up with new and innovative ideas, and really we were given a lot of leeway, and I think obviously from a corporate perspective, to support the next wave. So it's like I don't even feel like I work in the same place, quite frankly, and I don't even know if I work in the same industry anymore. And that's exciting.

I don't feel this need to, "Oh, what's next? What's next?" Because what's next is right here. And you interact with so many people who have ideas that you're like, you are crazy. And I'm not going to tell... You guys, many people listening to this, probably know some of those ideas that were like, some of them are great, but regulation's never going to make that happen. But we can think through that and we can problem-solve. And when Bitcoin came in through these doors, I don't even know what year, this is before your time, Tom might remember, 2013, I don't know, '15, '16, something like that, we're like, "You guys got to go. This is never going to happen." And so-

Douglas Yones:

And yet it...

Maital Legum:

And yet it did.

Douglas Yones:

... yet it does. If you think about the firsts that have happened here in this building... The very first ETF, of course, launched with the American Stock Exchange, which is owned by the New York Stock Exchange. Very first fixed income ETFs. Very first commodity ETFs, we're coming up, this year will be the 20 year anniversary of GLD. Very first active ETFs. Even the idea that we would put an active bond fund and wrap it in an ETF. And this morning we had JBD, the JP Morgan active bond fund, move to the floor of the Exchange. That's new and exciting, only about a year old.

Maital Legum:

Well, coming back. A little bit.

Douglas Yones:

Coming back to the floor, versus the electronic markets. ICE is pure entrepreneurialism. The New York Stock Exchange is pure, what else can we do to help support and grow this industry? That's, the birth of ETF Central a year ago was all about, how do we help grow investors' knowledge and education around ETFs? So does that feed into... For someone who's sitting in and listening in, they're saying, boy, I'm a young person, I'm looking at Maital and thinking, how do I follow in her footsteps? How do I have this successful career in ETFs? What's your advice for them?

Maital Legum:

I can't say I planned it. Part of is luck, but you've got a place yourself in the right spot. So at the end of the day, I really feel like you got to go into a job, it doesn't matter what it is, and I think I did that in my first job and over the course of being here, and find the holes. Find where you can add the most value, and that will eventually pay off. So I don't know if we went into this, but when I started here, I supported half of the clients and half of the listings, and we only worked on half. And as time evolved, I'm like, "Hey, I think we could make this better. I think we can make better efficiencies. I'll control, I'll manage the whole calendar, all the issuers, all the listings." And I slowly began to grow my responsibilities out of finding holes and finding efficiencies and saying, "Hey, I want to do this."

Anyone that has ever managed me, I feel like you don't need to tell me what to do. I got to tell you as my manager, what I need you to do for me to execute my job. Truly, I strongly feel that that's a really key component of being successful. And it doesn't even matter what role it is and in what industry it is, but find where you're needed the most, and add the most value and the rest kind of falls into place. So I never, ever had this, like, I would come into work and like, "I need you to work on X, Y, and Z." I'd be like, "I need you to do this," I'm like, "Okay, but I'm going to do this, this, this, and this, and we're going to make it better. And this is what I need you to do for me in order for me to execute that and get that done," and kind of come up with your own ideas and take initiative.

And this, at least... I don't think every job maybe allows for that, but find a job that does, because it will give you a lot of opportunities. And now I know everybody, I got to interface with everybody, because, you know this, I created this role. This role didn't exist. It's not how it was structured when I started, but I'm like, let's figure this out. Let's work this out. Let's find this role. I knew that this is what I wanted to do. I didn't want to do pure sales. That wasn't for me. And we talked about this over the years, like, "What do you want to do?" And I'm like, "There's a lot here." And that's not how our team was structured for many, many years. But when I came in, I'm like, I'm going to find a home for myself within this framework and we're going to make it work, and I think it's going to be valuable. So I think at the end of the day, finding where you could be most impactful, where you can add the most value, is super important. So not just sitting there, but I was always, I hopefully still am, very proactive with ideas. And the worst they can say is, like, "No, we're not doing that. We don't have resources for that," but at least try. And that's my advice to everybody.

Douglas Yones:

And by the way, it's great advice. In fact, the way I would translate that to the nerds in the crowd, like me, you're almost verbatim discussing Stephen Covey's philosophy on how to synergize and how to follow the seven habits of highly successful people. You are a highly successful person, and Maital's, in these books, if you've ever read the eighth habit especially, he talks a lot about the difference between moral authority and formal authority, and that when Maital says, taking on these problems or holes or things that can be fixed, you don't need formal authority in a role to build moral authority and to actually grow a business and to help your teammates and to help responsibility, which is what Maital preaches every single day in her life.

I want to go one step further with you because I think this is a question, if people don't know a bit about Maital, in addition to the fact that you're running the operations group for the New, York Stock Exchange, you also have three children at home. This is something that comes up, I think for a lot of working parents, working moms, is this idea of work-life balance. And seemingly, at least from the outside, you seem to be-

Maital Legum:

I'm laughing.

Douglas Yones:

Yeah, you're laughing at the word "balance," but you seem to the outside world to be balancing it all. Do you have tips? Do you have tricks? How do you get it all done and continue to come in here every day with a smile on your face, leave with a smile on your face? The people who work with you absolutely love working with you. How are you doing it all?

Maital Legum:

Obviously... We're not allowed to have bad days. Well, we are allowed to have bad days, but at the end of the day, when I come into work, it doesn't matter what's going on, they don't need to know that all hell's breaking loose in my house, right now, but I'm happy, we're smiling, we're getting our work done. So it creates, you come into work and you do have to just sometimes just leave it at the door, because you are managing people and they don't need to know if you're having a good day or a bad day. Every day is a good day. I try, I really try. I don't think people necessarily know when I'm having a bad day, but sometimes I could be a little bit snappier than others. But at the end of the day, it's still with a smile and joking.

But all things aside, and the people on the desk make fun of me a little bit, but they're like, "You have so many people at home doing different things and different tasks and..." You kind of do what works for you, but, a lot of help. I deliberately moved to a location where I have family, and that was super deliberate even before I had kids. So I was thinking about this before I had kids. I got to move to, I won't say where I live, just because I don't love it, but it's where I got to be, because that's what's going to... I'm always going to be working. I'm always going to have a career. So this is where we're going to be moving, because my in-laws live a few minutes away and they can step in if a kid is sick.

Then you hire as much help as you can hire. I got lucky. But you got to do what you can do, and I would say set up an infrastructure that supports you, and then at the end of the day, throw it all out the window, because it will not go as planned. So it's kind of accepting that it's never going to go as planned, it's going to be messy, and really the opposite of work. So when I come into work, you got to be super organized, you can't miss a beat, nothing can be messy, but at home, I've lived or I've learned to live with more mess than I ever would admit, because when I lived by myself, everything was so neat and now I'm like, "You know what? That play room will be mess. It is what it is." You just got to let things go. But as I said, you set up the infrastructure, you plan, and then you throw it out the window, because it's never, ever, ever going to go as you think. Things are always going to come up and you just somehow got to figure it out.

But just have a lot of people, if you can, supporting you and can step in and, whether it's somebody you can hire or somebody that's family or a really good friend or whatever it might be, is really important. And then a supportive team. We worked in a great place. People here, our family people, everybody here gets it. We have our priorities. We know, you got to go home, you got to go home. It doesn't matter because that's going to be your priority and you just have to own it. That's another thing. Just own it. And I never make up things. I'm like, "Oh..." You just do it and you own it, and you walk out the door and you do what you got to do, and then they know how to reach you. You have a supportive team. I don't work alone. Doug is here and Jamie and Tom and Hannah and Daniel.

Everybody's here, and if I am unavailable because my kid has something for an hour, hey, text me, but you probably don't need me. I should be okay, gone for however long. I took three maternity leaves. Everything was fine. People laugh about it, but everything worked out. It was fine. So just, at the end of the day, you just own it. I feel bad, when I was young and I was like, I saw all these moms leaving at four o'clock, I'm like, what are they doing? And now I'm like, I wish I understood. I really wish I had more sympathy. Not more sympathy, but I really wish I knew what they were going through, when I was 22. And now I'm like, oh my God, that was so... I get it. I get it now. But at the time, you can't plan for it.

Douglas Yones:

No. Wisdom comes with time. And by the way, Maital will be writing a book for everyone about how to juggle work-life balance. You could subscribe to her newsletter. When her website is published, we'll make sure everyone knows-

Maital Legum:

With all my free time.

Douglas Yones:

Yes.

Maital Legum:

Oh, and don't sleep. That's another good one. Don't sleep.

Douglas Yones:

A lot of tips in there, including, I guess, don't sleep. Maital, I joke about this on the desk because I like to say you're the ETF queen, because you have sat over, you have ruled over, likely more ETF launches than I think anyone else in our industry. You've been here over a decade, you've watched the entire growth, and you've been a part of every single one of those listings. So when I say the queen of ETFs, I mean it. You've seen it all. If you back up a bit, did you ever think the industry would get this big? And did you think it would be growing as fast as it's growing now, 30 years into ETFs, it's growing faster than it's ever grown, did you see this? And when you sort of predict into the future, what do you see then?

Maital Legum:

I wish I could say I saw it and I was so smart to get in before the time, but I think I saw potential. I don't think I necessarily thought that closely about the growth, but it makes total sense from a lot of people just managing their own money and wanting access. And people now ask me about ETFs. People are like, "Oh, what's a good ETF?" I'm like, "No, I'm not getting into this. I don't want to tell you about ETFs. I'll tell you about how ETFs-"

Douglas Yones:

You just send to ETFcentral.com.

Maital Legum:

ETF Central. I'm not giving you suggestions. I'm not giving you any... He's like, "What do you think about this ETF?" I'm like, "I'm not licensed to do that." That's my answer. I'm not licensed to do that. Our job here is to give you options. So we'll list anything that we can, because there's merit to everything. The reason you might want a certain strategy over another.

But I really didn't think about down the line, what we're seeing now and the growth and a lot of self-directed investing. And that was like, I just thought, I'm like, oh, this is good. We all know the benefits of ETFs and the tax efficiencies and the costs and why you might want an ETF over a mutual fund. And that was kind of like, oh, I see a lot of growth there. But then as all this other, this new element that I didn't think about, that I think is impacting a lot of the growth, the self-directed investing and just people wanting to manage their own money, and I don't think it started with covid, but a lot of it came with covid and then people, opening up brokerage accounts and investing, and that's just going to grow and grow and grow it. I see that just from the demographic that I interact with, on a personal basis, that they're buying ETFs, low cost ETFs for their portfolios, they're buying for their kids. They're managing a lot of their own stuff that I think traditionally wasn't something people would be comfortable doing so, but my generation and the younger generations before that, younger than me are really comfortable doing that with large amount of money.

So I didn't think about that, but that's really, I think, helped the growth. And besides, everything that we know of from cost efficiencies and tax efficiencies, things of that nature. So I want to pretend like I really thought about this when I started 10 years ago, "The growth is going to be..." But we have a long runway to go and I didn't realize it until, I think recently where I'm like, well, this is just scratching the surface. 30 years in is scratching the surface, and I feel fortunate that... I was deliberate in my decision to enter the ETF space, but I also really got lucky.

Douglas Yones:

Yeah. A lot of us did. We were seeking different things, whether it was learning new and exciting pieces of information, finding out new ways to think about investing. People came at this from a lot of different ways. But ultimately, like you said, setting yourself up to be in the right place at the right time, allows you to become lucky, because luck can play a lot into it. Maital, you and your team, you spend a lot of time with brand new issuers. So I almost call it T-minus one year, sometimes T-minus two years-

Maital Legum:

Seven years.

Douglas Yones:

Yeah, sometimes. You'll work with an asset manager and really help them think about their strategy. And that spans from everything from the launch of the ETFs to website strategy to sales strategy. At last count that well over 100 asset managers in the last three years have entered the ETF space with their very first ETF here at the New York Stock Exchange. Are there things that you sort of look at and say, Hey, these are sort of the top things that sometimes firms get wrong?

Maital Legum:

I think that people, different asset managers, focus so much on the pre-launch process. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't focus on it, and you have to have a good strategy and you have to have a good story, but they put a timeline and they put a target and they're just like, we have to meet this deadline. We have to meet this. And at the end of the day, you spend so much time selecting partners and people that you work with, and you have to trust them. There's a lot of trust that goes on in launching ETFs with different partners. But at the end of the day, the nice thing about ETFs is that when you launch that ETF, it's just your starting point. So should you be hyper-focused about one particular day that you need to get out the door by? No, I really don't think so.

And I think people get so focused and fixated on the before process, rather than after, the day two and the selling and the raising assets, which at the end of the day is way more important. Because if you don't have that, how long are you going to be out there? How long is that life cycle going to be? So it is important, and I focus, my whole job is to make sure that you meet the deadline that you give me. So people are like, "Are we going to be okay?" I'm like, "I will chase you with a pitch fork, I don't even know what, to make that date." So people are always so worried. And I was like, listen, you give us a date, we're going to move whatever we need, to get that done for you as one of your partners. There's other partners who I know also are very similar.

And so get your ops in line, get everything that you need from a technical perspective, but really focus on day two. And so that's kind of my advice, is that don't get so worried about making a deadline on the date that you want to launch. Listen, we all need deadlines. We all need a date to get things done by. But you have partners, then service providers, you're paying them to make those dates. So that's important. But I would say focus on day two. Before you even focus on day one, because that's really the most important. And we have these conversation all the time with people, and you could have the best idea in the world, the best performance, the best strategy, but if nobody knows about it and you didn't think about how you're going to get the word out and how you're going to sell it and how you're going to let people know, then it doesn't matter.

Douglas Yones:

Yeah. Yeah. And we've seen some fantastic ideas come and go, that either were in front of their time, or worse is they're right on time but they can't seem to get the word out. And as you said, just having that sales strategy day one of launch is, oh, congratulations on all the work for the past year to two years, sometimes longer, now the job starts. And sort of thinking about that ahead of time, clearly important. So let's turn the question around a little bit. So the firms that have come to market and they've done it well and they have gotten it right, are there best practices in mind that you typically will share to asset managers?

Maital Legum:

I think it really... Our industry is so diverse. There's so many different type of asset managers. There's so many different type of funds who focus on so many different type of investors that you're looking to reach. So at the end of the day, I think you need to be focused. And it's not just, we're going to list this and then retail will know about it and they're going to be excited. And I don't think you can depend on that, because at the end of the day, we know there's a lot of new funds out there and there's a lot of new strategies, but how many of them raise asset quickly? Very, very, very, very few. So I think, and not just my advice, I think it's our whole team, people ask us all the time, and it's, you just got to keep at it.

You have to do your traditional sales, new innovative ways, and really just think about the long game and not about like, "Oh, 20 years ago when an ETF listed, it just automatically traded a ton and there was a lot of assets into it and a lot of people invested in it," relatively, just assume that's not going to happen. I think you've got to go in with that assumption. And even if, you're going to ask me about it, even if you have the best ticker in the world, what you perceive as the best sticker in the world or the best ETF that you could even think of, that anybody would want, maybe, I don't know. I don't know what to say. I think it just takes time and a lot of effort. And you just have to be focused and you have to be patient and manage expectations, especially internally.

So when these big shops come to us and they have a project team and they have a brand new head of ETFs, and you're like, just make sure people in management know what to expect. Because even the big issuers do not raise assets overnight. So I think it's just managing expectations, and have a long runway. Don't say, "If I don't make it in six months, I'm out." It's not going to happen. It could, but most likely, it's not going to happen. So if you're going to get into this game, which is super competitive, fees are really low, it's going to take a long time. Just be ready and have that in mind, because I think we often see a little bit of unrealistic expectations and then people are disappointed, but this isn't easy. If it was easy, more people would be doing it, right? That's the point. So I guess that would be my piece of advice, of especially people trying to get into this space, is do a lot of homework and be really reasonable and give yourself time.

Douglas Yones:

So you brought it up, so now I have to talk about it, you did bring up ticker symbols. As the queen of ETFs, you've seen a lot of ticker symbols across a lot of different strategies. Do you have a favorite symbol that has launched here at the New York Stock Exchange?

Maital Legum:

All right. So I thought about this because people are always asking me, "What's your favorite ETF? What's your favorite ticker?" I'm like, this is a really unpopular answer, very unpopular, but I don't believe that... Tickers are important, but I think it's more, how do you become a household name, from a ticker perspective. It doesn't have to be a word. And a lot of tickers that are words, I won't even think of any right now, but, don't succeed. So it's like, just pick something that makes sense, that sounds, I know it sounds kind of ridiculous, I don't know how to say it, but sounds good together, and make it a household name. Do you think when DIA launched, people were like, "Oh, that's a great symbol?"

Douglas Yones:

Probably not.

Maital Legum:

No. But now everybody knows it. So there's a lot of focus on that. But at the end of the day, I don't think it's the end-all be-all. A lot of people disagree with me, but I didn't run this but it would be great to be like, okay, what are the top 100 ETFs? And I guarantee you that the majority of them are just a random three to four letters, and they've just become household names and people know about them because they keep hearing about them and they keep seeing them, and then it kind of rolls off the tongue, but it doesn't have to be a word. So this is an unpopular opinion by many. And trust me, I manage all the ticker requests and people who are like, "We want this word," and I'm like, "Okay, but it's not going to be available," and you could still be successful if you don't have this ticker. Some people disagree with me, but that's just my opinion.

Douglas Yones:

And then of course, you can search all ETF ticker symbols on ETFcentral.com. You go to the upper right hand corner, there's this free search bar, free screener. You can look for strategies. You don't have to know the symbol. You can look just by strategy or name, even a theme, and you'll find all the US-listed ETFs at ETFcentral.com. Maital, before I let you go, we talk a lot about the certified ETF advisor designation. Do you have the CETF?

Maital Legum:

I do. I'm not sure I would've been able to keep my job if I did not pass that after 12 years in the industry. But yes, I do have it. I did all the read-ups and I studied, made sure that often we're in the weeds and we don't even remember what certain words are or how things are structured, or... We kind of just know them intuitively. But to take a test... I'm an overachiever, I was really good at school, so I wanted to make sure that I didn't fail this test and at least I did decent. So yeah, it was great. It was kind of a nice reminder of some of the basics that we don't think of, and I probably learned a few things from doing it myself. But yeah, of course I'm a certified ETF advisor. I think it's going to be a growing certification, and I keep seeing more and more and more people have it on the back of their cards or their signatures or their LinkedIn. So yeah, I'm happy to say I passed. I was a little worried, but I made it.

Douglas Yones:

So you heard it here. Even Maital Legum had to study just a little bit to make sure she got her certification. Please go ETFcentral.com. Click on ETF Institute. You too can become a certified ETF advisor, a CETF. It is our FINRA recognized designation, and this year, 2024, we have kicked off a series of webinars only available to certified ETF Advisors. So please go to ETF Central today.

That is a wrap on this edition of ETF Central, the podcast. As a reminder, you can find this episode as well as all the other episodes, and spend time utilizing that free ETF screener I mentioned, all at the website, ETFcentral.com. Thank you again to Maital for being here to share her insights. Stay tuned for upcoming episodes featuring thought leaders from across our ETF ecosystem. I'm Douglas Yones, head of exchange traded funds of New York Stock Exchange, the home of ETFs.