In this episode, Douglas Yones, Head of Exchange Traded Products at the New York Stock Exchange, is joined by Morrison Warren, Partner at Chapman and Cutler, LLP to share the latest news on the quest for a spot digital asset ETF, the potential timing for new multi share class ETF exemptive relief filings, and the future of innovation across the ETF marketplace. 

Douglas and Morrison discuss:

• The latest news for digital assets and ETFs
• Current filings for multi share class ETFs
• Future innovation across the ETF industry

ETF Central’s THE PODCAST:

TRANSCRIPT:

Douglas Yones:

Hello and welcome to ETF Central, the podcast where we bring the latest and greatest ETF industry perspectives directly to you through in-depth conversations with key thought leaders from across the ETF ecosystem. I'm your host, Douglas Yones, the head of exchange traded products at the New York Stock Exchange, the home of ETFs. Now today I'm joined by Morrison Warren. He's a partner at the Chapman Law Group. Morrison is both a friend of the New York Stock Exchange as well as a co-chair of Chapman's Investment Management Practice Group. Morrison has extensive experience advising registered investment companies and their boards of directors, registered investment advisors, index providers, broker dealers on a variety of matters pertaining to the security laws that guide and regulate our entire industry.

Now, Morrison is one of the leading legal ETF practitioners in our industry. He now serves as fund council to over 350 ETFs, and through his representation of these clients, he's actually helped to bring to market some of the most notable products in recent years, including the very first 1940 Act, commodity ETF, the first blockchain ETF, the first defined outcome or buffer product ETFs, the first levered and inverse single stock ETFs, the first levered Bitcoin ETF, and of course, the very first Bitcoin futures ETFs. Warren, thank you so much for being here.

Morrison Warren:

It's my pleasure to be here, and I welcome our conversation

Douglas Yones:

I know I just did it, and we're going to start there 'cause you're like the man with two first names. I called you Warren. That must happen all the time. I don't know why. We've known each other for years, so apologize, Morrison. Let me start, though, first of all, everyone in the industry should know who you are. They might not, and that's the whole point of the podcast. We've got you here because we're going to make sure everyone gets to know you. Could you talk a little bit about your current role at Chapman? What is it you're doing day to day, how you're spending your time? Anyone who knows you, you're a man on the run, but easy to get a hold of, which is amazing, but share with us your day-to-day. After Morrison brushes his teeth, where does he go from there?

Morrison Warren:

Well, Doug, I'll back up a little bit just to give some perspective as to what we do and who I am. I'm with Chapman & Cutler in Chicago. We are a finance-focused firm, 250 lawyers, and all we do is finance. So I'm co-chair of our investment management practice and our investment management practice is focused on a range of products, unit investment trust, open-end funds, closed-end funds, and seriously been focused on ETFs for quite a while now. My day-to-day is I serve clients on a regular basis. I serve as the relationship partner for a group of our clients. I also help with others that lead our team to try to set the direction of our practice, and I have to try to maintain my expertise, so I'm a subject matter expert, and that's something that is really important to me. Hopefully, I serve as a mentor to our younger people and with it, I'm also heavily involved in business development and trying to be someone who's available and seen in the marketplace and support our industry.

Douglas Yones:

Those are a lot of really big shoes to fill, which you're doing day in and day out. I want to hit a couple of those specifically. So subject matter expert, are there things you're doing, reading, following up on? How do you maintain being in the front of the pack of a really dynamic industry?

Morrison Warren:

Gosh, there's so much information that flows to us to make sure that we stay in front of what's happening. Obviously, any releases from the SEC is important. There are obviously case law and changes relating to legal interpretations that we have to stay in front of. We also have to understand what's happening in the marketplace, the products that have filed, the sizes of various products just so we have an understanding who are the players in the marketplace. We have conversations constantly with folks like you at the NYSE, trying to understand what's happening and what is really important at this point, what may be important for our clients. We're also trying to figure out where things are going to be able to serve our clients and to be a resource to help them navigate this maze that exists, this regulatory maze that we live in.

Douglas Yones:

It seems like to me whenever there's a new release or the SEC publications or requests for comments, seemingly, they always come out at Friday afternoon going into the weekend. What happens on your side? When that happens, is it an all hands on deck, everybody's weekend is ruined? What goes on? Because it seems like in order to stay in front, you guys have to digest all that, put it together, put brains together, and then you're now reaching out to your clients saying, "Hey, let me educate you."

Morrison Warren:

Absolutely. We work very well as a team. There is a lot of material and sometimes, as you know, the releases are huge. So oftentimes for the bigger releases, we will divide up tasks so that we're able to come back very quickly and having an understanding of what's important and what's out there. I think we have to, because the first thing that happens is we're expected to be helpful for our clients to understand and understand how it will affect them, and we work great as a group. We end up having meetings to discuss what's important about what's happening, where we may have to come to interpretations regarding the law, and we're super supportive. So as I said, I work in a group of our investment management group of 30 other lawyers. We've all worked together for a really long time. We talk every day, and part of what we talk about is what's happening, all the new stuff that's happening.

Douglas Yones:

I started out with a comment of just seemingly always on the run, but also always available, and I really meant it. For example, for the listeners, there was a mutual client had reached out, they had a bit of an emergency, they needed some legal representation. Morrison covers them. They asked if we could set up a Zoom. I jump on this Zoom and here's Morrison. We're asking them, "What's this background we see?" "Oh, my son's getting married in a couple of hours." So thinking of that in mind, thinking of these releases that come out, they're 280 pages on a Friday afternoon, and you've got to give your advice, these weekend-ruining days, go back in time for me. Were you in college and saying to yourself, "You know what? Fast-forward 20 years from now, I want my personal time getting taken up with these matters." Did you always envision this? Did you always want to be a lawyer? Where did it all start from?

Morrison Warren:

Actually, I didn't. I wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon, and that was based upon having a... I was an athlete as a kid, hurt a decent amount, major surgery, and the person to me that was an absolute hero was an orthopedic surgeon, that essentially took a circumstance where, "Gosh, you'll never play again unless they fix you," and they fix you.

Douglas Yones:

Right.

Morrison Warren:

So I'm like, "This is perfect for me." I get to college, I start taking biology, I realize, "Gosh, that's not for me." I immediately switched to poli sci. With it, at that time, it was, "Maybe law. "Maybe I'll get an MBA, who knows? We'll see." I have a very important uncle in my life who is only three years older, more like an older brother. He was at Notre Dame Law School and he said, "I love it. You have to show up here." I said, "I don't know if I'm that committed yet to that idea." He sent me a plane ticket. He was a 25-year-old, tells you how unique that person is.

So whether I showed up there, Notre Dame was the place for me. The law school, immediately I realized, "This is what... I really want to be a lawyer." I didn't really want to be a litigator. I thought transactional law was for me, and so started on my path, and I will say that every step of the way, I've been very lucky that I have very supportive and helpful people in the process. Then with regards to what's happening all the time, innately, I love puzzles. I'm a curious person. I want to understand how something works, want to dive through it so I understand the implications for what's going on 'cause ultimately, it'll help us solve problems and serve people.

Douglas Yones:

So you get to law school, how did you navigate your way into investment company law, ETFs? Where does that start to pick up? Because again, I imagine when we talk of ETFs really weren't a thing when that was happening.

Morrison Warren:

Yeah, no, I started my legal career in 1991, first ETF was 1993. I was a summer associate at ChapmanCutler, and I had no idea what I wanted to do. I honestly did not know one lawyer other than a family friend who was a family practice lawyer. So I just didn't even know that lawyers were transactional lawyers that didn't do divorces or small claims. I just didn't know it existed. So Notre Dame opened my eyes, and then I was fortunate that I had on-campus interview at Chapman. At Chapman, some very important people, one of which still works at Chapman, which is fantastic, were directing me to come to the investment management group. They were like, "No, this is going to be better for you versus some of the other practices." Since it's all finance to some degree, as a young person, I'm like, "I don't really know how they differ." Pretty quickly at Chapman started to realize, "Okay, what we're doing is helping people create products and provide advice regarding those products and how they run in the regulatory environment."

That ended up being a place that seemed to make sense. There were rules, right? There was a process and also there was always a pace and there was a game. There was trying to get something done right within a timeframe, which was really fun in a way and attractive. Ultimately, I started at Chapman. I don't know what it was, it's like, "Gosh, I might need to be in-house to learn something else," or maybe I was antsy. I'm not even sure. I went in-house and worked for one of our clients, Nuveen Investments, great firm, great people. I was there for four years at Nuveen and I had to make a decision, "Well, am I going to be a law firm lawyer or am I going to be an in-house lawyer?" At that point I'm like, "I like the flexibility associated with being a law firm lawyer."

From there, I thought at Chapman and talked to the folks that were there like, "Hey, one thing we could really do is focus on our managed fund practice," and we embarked on that. Then ETFs were coming around, and I will say in about 2000 'cause the first ETF was in 1993, I believe, and those were unit trusts. We were heavily in the unit trust space, but they're very different animals, and they were a unique purpose. About 2000, it really started to heat up like that, "Gosh, there may be more than just the limited set of index funds that are out there. There may be more to it." Then it really became clear there were such clear advantages associated with ETF structure, not to dismiss the others. They have their benefits as well, but the transparency, the low cost, tax efficiency, those were all things it seemed like, "Gosh, that's where you had to keep your eye on that ball 'cause that ball is going to be where things are going."

Douglas Yones:

Yeah, it's interesting, like you said, early days, I don't think any of us... Put it maybe a different way. You would've been one heck of a crystal ball reader in early 2000s to see the future of ETFs. I was working on a project to launch my very first ETF, I guess that project would've kicked off somewhere around 1999, 2000. The first ETF I was involved in was VTI. It launched in 2001. I didn't personally make a commitment to really want to drive my career around ETFs until 2008. That's a pretty far distance into the ETF industry before it was a wake-up call for me. But how about you? Was there a spot where things started clicking or you started seeing the future and you said, "Hey, I want to focus here. I need to be in ETFs?"

Morrison Warren:

We had clients that were considering ETFs and pursuing exemptive relief in the early 2000s, so folks that really were getting to consider the possibility early. From there, to be honest, we had a very big unit trust practice. We had a respectable managed fund practice, otherwise, closed-end fund and open-end fund. But to me, with ETFs being brand new, I'm like, "This is a space where there's no experts. This is a space where if we focus, we really have an opportunity to step out in front." So as a firm, we decided to pursue and embark on figuring out what it would take to have an ETF practice and be in a position where we would be helpful to our clients and provide advice. Then beyond that, we had fantastic clients that were moving us in that direction. Lawyers don't have work to do unless clients want them to do it. So as much as anything, our clients were pushing us in that direction and gave us key early experience so that we were capable of being helpful.

Douglas Yones:

So I want to step back to your, you've got all this wisdom that comes with experience. For those listening in, all those orthopedic surgeons in their first semester of college out there, what are tips for success? Those that are coming up through their career? Are there things that you say, "Hey, for those that really want, get to the top here, the things you need to be doing as an individual, as an organization?" What are the Morrison best practices for winning?

Morrison Warren:

Well, I will provide the things I've told my kids, which they listened to only part of it. But I would start with be curious and be willing to invest in yourself. Try to figure out what suits you and what's important for you, and try to plot out as best you can a path that would seem work for you, but be flexible and be willing to see what comes up and apply yourself. I would also say invest yourself and do the best you can and with it ultimately, hopefully you find something that really grabs your attention because I think it's hard to be successful when it doesn't. If it's just a task, it's hard to get to do those things that you need to do at 9:00 at night because it's due the next day and it has to be right. So you really have to care about it and be invested in it.

Douglas Yones:

Without a doubt. That just shines through and we've worked together for a long time. Any client that's a mutual friend and partner partner, you just feel that Morrison cares and you care a lot about the people you work with and the work they're doing. You have raised world-class athletes.

Morrison Warren:

It's not from me. I wish I was a world-class athlete, but my daughter is a speed skater, and so hopefully she'll make this Olympics.

Douglas Yones:

What's your side of the commitment that goes into training for an upcoming Olympics?

Morrison Warren:

Obviously, some of it's financial, and some of it is emotional, and she always has a fan in me. Yes.

Douglas Yones:

When she's there, I will look out for the sob story they do in advance of her going to race and the interview with, I'll highlight that and make sure it's on the NYSE social media feed.

Morrison Warren:

I'll be ready. I'll be ready. I hope that happens. That would be fantastic.

Douglas Yones:

Okay. Let's talk a little bit about some of the major initiatives in flight, because as a first, I don't know what to call it, a first lawyer, you've launched a series, not just one or two, a full series, you're well-known, Chapman's known well-known for launching these first ETFs. One of the things you're working on right now is this multi-share class filing. So for those that aren't aware, it's available on the etfcentral.com. You can find it. Morrison joined on stage here at the New York Stock Exchange with Ben Slavin and Rob Kenyon as other guests. We did a webinar many months ago when that filing first entered, but you're right there in the forefront. Those that don't know, maybe you could share, where are we in the process to basically offer up multi-share class ETFs to the entire U.S. Industry?

Morrison Warren:

I'll back up for a minute. Yes, and Doug, you see me a lot.

Douglas Yones:

Right.

Morrison Warren:

But it's really, we work in these really good teams, and so we have so many people that support what we're doing. Then ultimately, as I mentioned before, we are fortunate to have really great clients who are thoughtful, who really are seeking to innovate and push the envelope. So with it, we are lucky and get to help with regards to these projects. One of those projects is the multi-share class relief. For me to sum it up easily is that Vanguard received relief back in 2002 that allowed them to have an ETF share class within a broader mutual fund structure. What it allowed for certain efficiencies, it also allowed for investors that were mutual fund investors and ETF investors to share in potential costs to benefit from economies of scale. It was so successful that Vanguard, I don't know the quotes or the actual amounts, but it may be more than a trillion dollars, and Doug, you may know, that are invested in this sort of structure. So it's been super successful. Well, Vanguard is the only party who's really been able to take advantage of that.

Right now, with there being so many mutual fund providers who would perhaps want to have ETFs, one option that may be convenient or useful for them would be to just add an ETF class to their existing mutual fund structure. So with that, with having a circumstance where Vanguard clearly has this relief and is using it, it's been helpful and useful, why couldn't others? So we were approached by a client as to, "Gosh, would you be willing to pursue this relief?" Seemed to make sense to me, and it seemed like there were strong benefits that could flow to the industry. There have been now three filings. They're all a little bit different, two of which are contemplating adding an ETF class to a mutual fund structure, and one's proposing the opposite, adding a mutual fund to an ETF. But in the end, if ultimately it benefits investors for a range of reasons and the negatives aren't so great that you should stop it, the SEC should stop it, then why not go forward, is the way we're thinking. It works for Vanguard and I think it could work for others.

Douglas Yones:

Yeah, this has been an interesting one for me, Morrison, because we've worked on this, I think together now for many years, getting ready for the filing. The Vanguard patent fell off earlier this year in 2023. There's a weird rumor mill on this one it feels like where there's people out there that have made up all these reasons why they don't think that the multi-share class filings, that these new ones that they'll go through. You also have these rumor mill on the other side saying 100% going through there's and... Where do you fall on this? You've been engaged with the SEC, you've got partners that have been former SEC commissioners over at Chapman & Cutler for those that are listening in and saying, "Hey, should we be involved? Is there a likelihood of seeing this happen?" Could you comment on that?

Morrison Warren:

My sense is that there are lots of good reasons why it should happen, and there are challenges to be solved, but I believe they are solvable. I tend to be an optimist, but I would think that the SEC staff would be sensitive to circumstances where parties who are equally situated being treated differently. So my hope is that they're willing to work through the issues, and I have a little bit of faith that they will. What are the alternatives, when you think about it? Folks, they can create a completely separate fund. There's a cost associated with that. There are benefits that are lost when you have to do that, or you could cannibalize your existing mutual fund and convert it to an ETF. There are costs associated with that too and negatives. This is an elegant solution to that problem, so my hope is that the SEC allows others to benefit as Vanguard has.

Douglas Yones:

The interesting question in here for, let's say, an asset manager, let's say they're listing it and they're like, "Yep, I feel the same way," and again, I have to be cautious here because I'm super biased. I'm actually very positive, and I'm a big believer that this will go through. So I won't pile on to what you're saying. I'll try and be objective even though I don't want to be. If someone's out there listening and they're saying, "Okay, I think there's a chance too," is there a reason why they should consider filing now versus should they just sit back and see what happens with everybody else and then decide? What would be an impetus to maybe go one direction or another?

Morrison Warren:

At this point, I think that those folks on the first front wave will probably set the standard for the initial set of conditions. So I think that there is value in being in that front wave. Also, too, at least you tend to have things like this that are relief. Multiple parties coming in, they end up getting the relief oftentimes around the same time so long as they solve for the problems. It'd be nice to be on the front edge of that group. I also think it's helpful if this is something you think that's beneficial for the marketplace or for your firm. I think it's helpful the more filings that come in, the more the SEC has to deal with it. They see how important it is, okay, we'll have to solve for the issues and have a reasonable set of requirements and conditions and having everyone live with that, and so that this is an opportunity that others get to benefit from beyond just Vanguard.

Douglas Yones:

Yeah, I'm going to repeat a couple of things in there, Morrison, not to try and make myself sound smarter, which I would appreciate, but I'm going to convert it into a little bit of layman's terms. Then my lawyer in the room can tell me if I'm crazy. The two points that I heard in there, and they came up in the webinar as well, which again, available for replay if people want to watch it and go a little bit further in depth. I think Ben Slavin brought this point up at BNY Mellon. One is that the people who are filing all might have very different ways in which they want to handle certain aspects of the multi-share class filing, meaning maybe the way they account for daily fees and accrual of those fees across share classes. So by you as an investment manager that's listening in, you as an ETF issuer, you might want to do it differently than the people who have already filed.

So it would be in your best interest to make sure your version is in front of the SEC for consideration while they're looking at it, because if you're not there, they might not consider it. They might end up approving these other structures. Then you come in and they're like, "I don't want to look at that anymore. We've moved on to the next subject." the second point is that other asset managers also being there, raises it to the SEC to say, "Hey, this is actually important, and yes, you have a lot of things on your plate, but you should probably consider dealing with this because it's important to enough asset managers," almost like an industry consortium, are those fair points?

Morrison Warren:

I think absolutely fair. I would hope that the SEC staff, for instance, if you were to come in later and you had a different set of factors or considerations that they would consider it, but it would arguably be on a different timeframe. So my sense is this first wave will be dealt with in a given way if they are. If that happens, that relief will be fairly baked until you make the case that you need something different, and that takes time. So that's where I see the benefit. Also, too, it's hard to ignore significant players coming in and asking for something that others have. So it's just one of those things that the more of that happens, I think it moves to the front burner as opposed to sitting where it may be.

Douglas Yones:

Yeah. Again, in layman's terms, that means you might come in as an asset manager and say, "Well, I chose not to file now, these other firms have relief." Now you decide, "Oh, they got relief, now I better file." You could be 12 months, 18 months to 24 months waiting. Whereas if you started that clock, it starts today. So please, if you're interested and you're listening in, contact Morrison and his team at Chapman. Contact me, I'm happy to connect you to the right people. But we want to make the case as to why multi-share class ETFs are good for the industry and the more asset managers that are involved that we think the better. Morrison, feel free to cut me off, but I want to switch topics while I have you.

I don't even know, is this the topic that we all are spending our time on? But let's talk crypto assets. Let's talk to digital assets, cryptocurrency. Hot off the press. I'm sure by the time this publishes, it'll still be hot off the press, we've got this recent Grayscale ruling. They sued the SEC, they've at least won in the preliminary. We all recognize that there could be some appeals in here. While we're recording this, there's a whole slew of Ether future ETFs that are in the pipeline. We've got filings coming in for spot Ether, you and your team, how are you prioritizing all this? What are your thoughts in digital assets? The floor is open. You're spending a lot of time here. You might as well share.

Morrison Warren:

Yeah, the digital asset space is so exciting in the investment management area, and you've captured all that's going on right now. I'll start with the Grayscale case. The Grayscale case, I think speaks to a good premise, and it's similar to what we were talking about with multi-share class relief, as similar situated parties should have similar capabilities or abilities under the regulatory system. So I think the premise there was that Bitcoin future ETFs are similar enough to Bitcoin spot ETFs that if one's approved, the other should be approved. That premise, there are quite a few Bitcoin spot filers that have come in over time. They've come to you all for 19 before applications for listing purposes. They've filed S-1 registration statements with the SEC. They've been stiff armed to some degree where they haven't been able to move forward. I think now it's time for things to move forward.

I think ultimately, it's hard to know what the schedule will be, but I think ultimately we'll have a spot Bitcoin fund. With that, I think that Ether is very similar to Bitcoin in many ways. On the horizon, there's been some spot Ether filings that have come in of late, I could imagine there'll be more. On the registered fund side, as opposed to the ETP side, there've been a flurry of Ether future fund filings that I believe will come as well. And based on the premise that if Bitcoin futures work in a 40 ACT fund, that the Ether futures should as well. So from my standpoint, if investors want exposure to Bitcoin Ether or Bitcoin futures or Ether Futures, what better way to do that is through a registered vehicle listed on a registered exchange where there's the best possible disclosure regarding those products, current information? You would hope investors are buying those vehicles through a vehicle such as that, a listed vehicle versus on their own. So to me, the better place to own these assets in a registered fund. So let's let that happen.

Douglas Yones:

Are there folks at Chapman that spend their time focused on innovation? If that question makes sense. You're clearly sitting at the forefront. How do you guys stay there? How do you stay on the leading edge of these types of things?

Morrison Warren:

I think as a group, we understand our value is helping our clients move into clear space. So we're very focused on trying to solve problems based upon this changing regulatory environment, taking advantage of changes to rules, because within those changes, there are opportunities. So we think that there are unique opportunities created by the passage of 6c-11, unique opportunities created by the modification of the exchange listing rules, and then also the derivative management related rules Rule 1884, there's opportunity in that 'cause a change in structure. So let's see what's possible. From that standpoint, and there's a certain curiosity about all this, and let's try to win as a group. So we regularly have calls and conversations about, "Hey, what may be possible because of this? What's the next step?" When you look at the ETF, they've brought asset classes that were previously unavailable to retail customers, and now they are. So we're looking at what other assets are prime for the ETF space now that we've had a different regulatory environment?

Douglas Yones:

Let's stay on that topic, right? So are there things, well, maybe the better way to say it, are there areas of growth that you're looking at, if you take out your crystal ball that you're excited about? Are there things you're working on that you'd be willing to share with us publicly that you look at and you say, "Hey, this is going to be some pretty meaningful thing, change as I look forward into the next decade of growth?"

Morrison Warren:

I will say the products right now that are really drawing our interest and attention are those that are using derivatives in a new way. So now there are products that are providing income through the use of derivatives. There are products that provide protection or a buffer through derivatives. So investors may have the ability to experience, let's say, the market, the S&P 500 as a market without bearing all the risks of downside risks. It's a unique opportunity where retail customers have that ability to participate yet protect themselves. So to me, that's super exciting. I think that's at its infancy, and it's just started. It'll be interesting to see where it goes.

Douglas Yones:

For sure. I know you're working on some other really exciting projects you can't talk about yet. Some of those we're working on together that I'm really excited about. So along those lines, you don't just work on the super future. I know you're just as excited regarding current ETFs. You're working with a lot of asset managers that are entering the space for the first time. Could you talk a little bit about the support that you provide for your clients, say they've managed money for a long time, but they haven't necessarily had their first ETF? You and your team, similar to here, you do a lot of consulting. You do a lot of supporting and handholding for someone that maybe is about to launch their first ETF, and even it could be a traditional ETF that we're very used to, but for that asset manager, that's a big change.

Morrison Warren:

For us, we hope that we help people in ways where we provide solutions where ultimately, obviously they're experts and they have an idea of what they want to do, and they come to us, and obviously it's not just me at Chapman, they come to us to say, "Okay, what's the most direct path to me accomplishing my goal? And then what do I need to worry about? Where are the pitfalls? Who are the best people to work with and talk to and to have an understanding of the marketplace to some degree?" So we hope that we're able to do that. I think that as time goes on, and the more folks that we work with and we see we get better at it, and as our relationships grow, and this ETF space, gosh, there's lots of assets and lots of funds, but in several ways, it's relatively small. A lot of us know each other, and we are in some ways working together to improve the ecosystem in the marketplace. We would hope that we're able to give folks access to that universe.

Douglas Yones:

Yeah, someone recently said to me, "ETF industry is like a coopetition industry where everybody's working on the same thing, which is growing the pie and helping the ETF industry grow." So again, if you're out there, you're thinking about the space, please reach out. There's so many of us that are here to help you. For an asset manager, Morrison, that's out there and they're saying, "Hey, I want to learn more," they want to get involved. You host a lot of webinars, industry calls, the Chapman team's always educating, you're producing content. How do they reach you? How do they reach the team? How do they follow or get involved and engaged with the Chapman & Cutler group?

Morrison Warren:

Oh, it's easy enough to reach out to me or any of the partners in our group. We're obviously online. We're on LinkedIn as well. We would welcome the opportunity to talk. With it, I would say we only want clients that are happy and that we're helpful. Plenty of times we talk to folks and say, "Gosh, the better route for you is to do this, which is not necessarily following a path that involves us." But ultimately, as you were saying, all of us are working in a sense together to have good results for all the folks that are participating in the ecosystem. So our sense is we're happy to talk and we would love to be helpful.

Douglas Yones:

Yeah, it sounds good. Again, visit their website. There's a ton of content there. I'm a subscriber. I get access to a lot of your calls. I love to dial in, and I feel like it's a ton of education for me as well. Now that is a wrap on this edition of ETF Central's the Podcast. As a reminder, if you're looking to invest in yourself and your ETF education, make sure to visit etfcentral.com. Under the tab ETF Institute you can find out about the certified ETF advisor designation and begin the work needed to become C-ETF. It's a FINRA registration. I have it, my whole team has it. I want to thank you again, Morrison, for being here to share your insights. Stay tuned for upcoming episodes featuring thought leaders from across the ETF ecosystem. I'm your host today, Douglas Yones, Head of Exchange Traded Funds at the New York Stock Exchange, the Home of ETFs.